04 Nov 2025
Commodore Antony Pisani: The theme of this panel is Indo-Pacific Perspectives on Maritime Security Challenges, and it will be hosted by Commander, Australian Fleet, Admiral Chris Smith. And we have a great panel lined up, and the panel members are Vice Admiral Mark Hammond, the Chief of Navy Australia; Commodore Timothy Natuva, the Chief of Naval Forces and Commander, Fiji Navy; Admiral Tan Sri Zamudi, the Chief of Navy, Royal Malaysian Navy; Rear Admiral Shaun Watt, Chief of Navy, Republic of Singapore; and Admiral Stephen Kayler, Commander, United States Pacific Fleet. Gentlemen, welcome, and to the Rear Admiral Smith, sir, on what you... have to lead the panel.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: For all those who just wanted a bit, you can stay here until, uh, we've completed the panel before you're done and pick up your earnings. We'll keep an eye on this. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Maritime security is a challenge that can take many forms, from conflict between nations to competition for resources to regulation of shipping and the numerous constabulary issues that come from responding to piracy, maritime crime, illegal migration, or IUU fishing. There is always something that nations need their maritime forces to be doing. With that comes the next challenge of where and when to deploy scarce resources, and a reminder of the scale of the challenge. Cooperation at sea is inadvisable to some degree, but if it is done with goodwill, with common practice and trust developed over time, then we can make better use of our scarce resources. I reread some of the discussion from the United States Naval Global Maritime Partnership, the 1,000-ship navy from 2005, and I realised that much of the language then was very similar to what I've just set out for you: scale, scarce resources, the need to cooperate. I confessed and then did a little AI exercise in what naval and maritime leaders have said about maritime security. You may not be surprised to know that what we say to each other is very consistent over time and over many different languages. Maritime security is indeed an enduring challenge. As an aside, a number of you feature quite prominently in the AI results. But we also know that maritime security is not static. Technology evolves and poses both great opportunity and new challenges. Nations change, and as we all know, navies are representative of their nation. China's actions continue to cause concern and instability. They are distinguished by their scale, but they are not alone. Some of these new challenges are high-tech. Others, such as the rash of dragging anchors, are distinctly low-tech. Perhaps the most enduring challenge of all is to ensure we listen and seek to understand each other. So, in that spirit, I'm honoured to be joined by such a distinguished panel of naval leaders from the Indo-Pacific, and for us all to be able to hear from them what is their national view on enduring and emerging maritime security challenges. Gentlemen, if you'd make some opening remarks in the order of your sitting, starting with Commodore Natuva, uh, and then coming back, uh, to some questions as we've seen in the previous panel.
Commodore Timoci Natuva: Bula vinaka [“Hello” (Fijian)]. Um, my name is Commodore Tim Natuva. I'm from Fiji . First and foremost, my sincere appreciation to the host for allowing us to come to, um, Sydney this morning. It's a privilege to join fellow military leaders to discuss a subject that is not abstract. For Fiji, it is, uh, existential. It is not a mistake. For island nations, the ocean is more than just a body of water, for instance. We hold a special connection with it. It's kind of like our home. Our, uh, rugby team, professional rugby team, is called the Fijian Ru'a. Ru'a is a type of canoe used by warriors in the old, uh, olden days to visit islands in the Pacific. This highlights the importance of the oceans for us. Fiji's maritime juris- jurisdiction spans about 1.3 million square kilometres, an area larger than our landmass, and the sources of our sustenance, trade, culture, and identity. This single fact explains why it is very important to protect it, hence the need for maritime security and a stable maritime security environment. It is mission-critical for Fiji. Keeping the domain secure and stable is critical because of a number of reasons, and I would like to highlight. Firstly, sovereignty and the rule of law. Our country is mostly ocean. The integrities of our borders, credibility of our licensing to regimes, enforcement of our laws are all overwhelming maritime problems. Securing the maritime domain is how we protect our sovereign rights, deter- deter illicit activities, and uphold a rules-based order at sea. Fiji's national security recognises this explicit- explicitly, where maritime security is a priority which requires a whole of government action. Secondly, for a country like Fiji, maritime security is economic security, and of course, protection of our blue economy. Fiji's National Development Plan ties national growth to ocean-based sectors, fisheries, shipping, and tourism.... that vision only works if sea lines are safe, if resources are harvested legally, and if maritime environment remains healthy. Our National Ocean Policy commits Fiji to 100% sustainable ocean management and 30% marine protected areas by 2030. This is more than a slogan, but requires enforcement task, monitoring, compliance, prosecutions. They depend on credible maritime domain awareness and persistence. But looking at the operational picture, looking at the threats, of course, [inaudible] the threat is... service familiar by demanding such as illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing that robs livelihoods. Transnational criminal networks that exploit open ocean spaces and maritime domain awareness gaps that stem from distance, dispersion, and limited resources. Overlay that with climate change as a threat multiplier and a bit of [inaudible] competition as a complicating factor, and you have an operating reality for Pacific forces and civilian agencies alike. However, while we often look at these threats directly and start targeting them, we often do not put the same energy to underlying issues or internal threats that set conditions for the maritime threats to thrive in the first place. We must first address underlying key issues first, and if not addressed correctly, it will continue to set conditions for maritime threats to thrive. I would argue three key underlying conditions that must be addressed. Firstly, it's happened, which we have not done well in Fiji's governance, a lack of synchronisation and strategic coherence. We must align national security strategy, national development plan, regional strategy, national opens all policy with agency level standard operating procedures. Defence and the Navy, all agencies must work together. There must be seamless change from licensing to patrol, from boarding to evidence handling, from prosecution to penalties that o- that actually deter. Good governance also means transparency and accountability, and a commitment from leaders of agencies with their calling, and that is to always put the national interest first. Avoid competition. Legislations must be available and must be clear. It must complement rather than complicate. Secondly, capability and sustainment of the people. Assets matter, but sustainment wins campaigns. Platforms must be backed by transit pipelines, spare fuel, spares, fuels, and logistic architecture scaled to our geography and within our capacity and capability. We must ask ourselves whether we are investing in the workforce as much as the hardware. Are the operators, in turn intel analysts, engineers, sailors, chefs, specialists happy and motivated? Are their family well looked after? Thirdly, regional and international cooperation must be coordinated and aligned to the interest of all. Regionalism, cooperation, and partnership is a strength multiplier, but sometimes for us, you know, it feels like a strength suppressor due to diverging and competing interests. There seems to be absence of synchronisation in the various regions forums that manages maritime safety in the region. Add that to external players, and it's quite just complex and complicated. Why I say this is because given the millions of dollar, dollars pumped into the region for years to support maritime safety, issues continue to persist. Some issues that I come, and I encounter when I joined three decades ago still persists now. Our part of the Indo-Pacific can sometimes be overwhelming and suffocating with partners and interests. Fiji welcomes cooperation, but we must be cautious about the principles that we do that. Capacity development must be provided versus over-dependency. A credible national maritime engagement posture allows us to engage global partners on our terms, shape regional strategies, and protect national priorities without being pulled off course by external interest which is not aligned to ours. We have to relook and reassess how engagement is going, determine what success looks like. Sometimes we just need to pause a little, relook within, ask ourselves, "Are the money well spent? Are we getting the right returns?" With some clarity then we can start targeted investment in the right places. In closing, Fiji's maritime security narrative is about protecting our way of life. Our oceans defines who we are. It feeds our people, sustains our economy, and connects us to one another across the Pacific. When our maritime domain is secure, our nation stand secure. But to achieve that, we must first secure ourselves from within through good governance, coherent laws, accountable institutions, and leaders who put national interest above competition. We must invest not only in hardware, but in people, our sailors, the engineers, the analysts, and families who give meaning to our platforms. They are our true centre of gravity. And regionally, we must rediscover the power of purposeful cooperation. Regionalism and partnership should not- should multiply our strength, not dilute it. It must be guided by clarity, coordination, and shared vision, and move away from competing agendas. The millions poured into the Pacific must translate into measurable capability, tangible outcomes, and real maritime safety for people, [inaudible].
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Thank you very much, it's uh... You made some, uh, very good points. Not only did you highlight some of the, uh, complexity at the international level, but the fact that, uh, that resides domestically, internal to an archipelago like yourself. And, uh, also the compete- competition for resources and the alignment, uh, that needs to be achieved, which is not always obvious, uh, immediately, and how you need to look at that sustainment over a longer period of time. Uh, all very wise words in terms of, uh, managing the maritime environment, but also, a m- very complex and maybe, uh, difficult to achieve. Thank you. Um, Admiral.
Admiral Datuk Zulhelmy Ithnain: Thank you very much, sir. assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh [and upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings (Arabic)], and peace be upon all of us. It is a great honor for me to address this, uh, forum. I would like to express my most profound appreciation to our host for this conference, the Royal Australian Navy, particularly to my friend, Admiral Hammond, and for his meaningful invitation and his commitment to strengthening the strategic dialogue on the future of maritime security in this vital region. Today, I will present my remarks on Maritime Security Challenges: Indo-Pacific Perspectives framed through Malaysia's strategic lens. This year, in August, the Royal Malaysian Navy was given the opportunity to chair the ASEAN Naval Chiefs Meeting, a platform that enable Malaysia to share its national perspectives and represent the collective aspirations of our ASEAN partners. It was attended by all the ASEAN navy chiefs, including the newly minted m- member from Timor-Leste. So congratulations, Timor-Leste for becoming the newest member of ASEAN.. The meeting reaffirmed the importance of unity and deeper cooperation in addressing regional maritime challenges. ASEAN and the Indo-Pacific are inseparably linked. Regional peace and prosperity depend on cooperative engagements, respect for rules-based frameworks, and sustained confidence-building measures. Yet, our maritime environments continues to face mounting pressures from great power competition, the evolution of non-traditional security threats, persistence conventional threats, and the growing prevalence of hybrid and grey zone tactics. In such a complex environment, no single navy can shoulder this responsibility alone. Safeguarding sea lanes and ensuring the stability of whole maritime domain requires collective presence, shared responsibility, and cooperation among all partners. The future security of the Indo-Pacific will be defined not by rivalry, but by cooperation. Malaysia remains steadfast in its commitment to multilateralism, contributing actively to ASEAN-led mechanisms, while forging regional partnerships. Our collective future must rest upon three enduring principles. First, good governance and rule-based order. UNCLOS remains the cornerstone of maritime stability and peaceful dispute resolution. By upholding international law, we ensure that our oceans remain open, secure, and guided by fairness rather than force. Second, strengthening cooperation and practical integration. No single navy can safeguard the vast Indo-Pacific alone. Collective security is achieved through collaboration, transparent information exchange, coordinated humanitarian responses, and regional exercises that foster unity. And finally, enhance trust, unity, stability, and interoperability. These four elements are the catalyst for maritime security principles, and are cultivated through dialogue, officer exchanges, and joint training or exercises. This bond indirectly deepens confidence among the littoral states of the Indo-Pacific and ensures our navies can operate together seamlessly when needed, whether in crisis or peacetime operations. By reinforcing these principles, we safeguard the sea lanes that sustain global trade and prosperity, fulfilling our duty today, and preserving peace and cooperation for future generations. The sea has always been the heart that unites us, a source of life, prosperity, and shared responsibility. Therefore, the strength of this Indo-Pacific conference will be defined by our readiness to foster cooperation, mutual understanding, and trust that transcends borders. This conference also serves as a vital platform to strengthen synergies, broaden perspectives, and advance concrete steps towards a safe, secure, and stable Indo-Pacific. May the spirit of unity, partnership, and mutual respect continue to guide us, our navies in representing security and stability throughout the Indo-Pacific for generations to come. With all due respect, I thank you for your attention. Thank you very much.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Sir, firstly, thank you for your leadership within ASEAN, previous period there. And, uh, y- your point of more friends is always better, and the inclusion of Timor-Leste in the ASEAN is- is a really great outcome for a nation that, uh, can continue to contribute more regionally. Um, also, uh, highlighting that, uh, competition, um, is- is never going to be as productive as cooperation, and the ability to cooperate, uh, across the region, across navies and governments is, uh, the way of ensuring great prosperity. So, Rear Admiral Wat.
Rear Admiral Sean Wat: Thank you. Thank you, Chris. Fellow chiefs, distinguished elites and friends, good afternoon. Let me first thank, uh, Vice Admiral Mohan and the Royal Australian Navy for the excellent hospitality, and for gathering us here today. It's, uh, indeed a privilege for me to be amongst esteemed speakers and friends. The Indo-Pacific remains a key region for global maritime activity. Approximately 67% of global maritime trade by value, over 16 trillion, moves through the Indo-Pacific, including critical sea lanes between the Straits of Malacca and Singapore, as well as the South China Sea. In the early 2000s, this number was closer to 50%. Uh, this was driven by shifting production and consumption patterns, signalling a steady growth in the importance of the Indo-Pacific over the last 20 years. And this is even more noteworthy if you take into account that in that same period, the value of global maritime trade nearly doubled, growing at almost 3% per year for 20 years. As the economic activity of the region increased, so too did the security challenges. Last year, Southeast Asian waters saw the sharpest rise in piracy globally. A 68% increase in incidents was reported by the Regional Cooperative Agreement against Armed Piracy, or ReCAAP, even as global piracy was on the decline. In addition to piracy, we continue to face threats from highly organised syndicates engaged in illicit activity. Drug seizures in Southeast Asia increased 25% to a record 236 tons last year, enabled by high speed, wide coverage communication technologies now more prevalent over the maritime spaces. ASEAN reported an economic loss of six billion annually due to illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing. This number is expected to go up with the detected instances of deception techniques such as AIS spoofing increasing by 300% since 2022. The South China Sea, too, remains a focal point of maritime tension, oftentimes with interactions by maritime enforcement vessels growing in intensity. These flashpoints, fanned by the far-reaching winds of geostrategic change, carry global implications for the rules-based order. I would like to put forward three suggestions on what navies can do to continue to uphold the stability of the region. First, we must continue to build partnerships and interoperability. Exercises, particularly multilateral ones, provide valuable platforms for our fleets to build mutual understanding and operational familiarity in a resource-efficient manner. By bringing together multiple partners in a single setting, such exercises allow forces to exchange best practices, enhance interoperability, and strengthen professional ties. This collective approach not only maximises training value for all participants, but also fosters trust and cooperation essential for addressing shared maritime challenges. Exercise Kakadu is one such demonstration. Since 1993, the RAN's flagship biannual exercise has grown significantly in size and complexity, revealing how participating navies view the exercise as a vital platform to enhance multi-domain interoperability. Another example is the Multilateral Naval Exercise Komodo, or MNEK, which saw the Indonesian Navy host 52 warships from 58 countries earlier this year. MNEK provided a dedicated opportunity for countries to collaborate for HADR missions ashore and at sea. Second, we must maintain a firm commitment to international law and the rules-based order. ASEAN nations continued to reaffirm our commitment to resolve disputes in accordance with UNCLOS during the ASEAN Foreign Ministers Meeting earlier this year. In addition, we have established codes of conduct, such as the Code for Unplanned Encounters at Sea, or CEUS, which has been adopted since 2014 to build confidence and reduce misunderstandings at sea. Maintaining a rules-based order at sea in turn requires sustained commitment ashore through dialogues and forums, such as the SEAPAL Conference, as well as other conferences around the region. And these are platforms for nations to enco- engage constructively and to seek alignment. The rules-based order remains a common standard by which all states, regardless of size or power, co-exist and cooperate. It provides predictability, fairness and stability in international relations. These factors, when woven together, not only provide a way for countries to resolve current differences, but forms an umbrella for peace and prosperity. Third, navies must look, must look ahead, to focus our minds on the emerging challenges that require our collective attention. Climate change is a global existential threat that knows no boundaries. This shared vulnerability presents an opportunity for cooperation. The technologies you develop for maritime awareness, data analytics and unmanned systems can be dual purposed to monitor and provide early warning. The rapid proliferation in the unmanned vessels field presents another regulatory challenge. While the IMO has outlined steps towards a code of conduct, fundamental questions on qualification of autonomous vessels, whether ships remain governed by UNCLOS, we should seek to harmonise regulations and prevent the formation of a regulatory vacuum arising from differing standards and ambiguous identification procedures for unmanned vessels. Finally, the Indo-Pacific hosts the densest network of undersea cables worldwide, carrying more than 95% of all international digital data, over 10 trillion in transactions per day. Singapore, together with Brunei and Thailand, jointly co-sponsored a concept paper on critical underwater infrastructure security to the ASEAN Defence Ministers Meeting earlier this year, an endeavour to be a responsible user of the sea, working together with ASEAN partners to respond, facilitate repair and recovery to minimise disruptions that will likely affect multiple states and can carry extensive impact far beyond our region, given how interconnected our world is today. In conclusion, uh, the statistics are clear. Our waters carry, uh, disproportionate global consequences, and as leaders of the Indo-Pacific, we should leverage our collective maritime strength to secure not just the prosperity of more than half the world, but really peace and prosperity for all. Thank you very much.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Thank you. Uh, highlighting not only the increasing importance of our maritime environment, but at the same time, the, the increasing challenges that we face, and, uh, and the increasing cost associated with those. Um, also, uh, the changing nature of the challenges and therefore the opportunities for, for future, uh, cooperations. And thank you for this. Uh, Admiral Koehler.
Admiral Stephen Koehler: Thanks, uh, Chris. First of all, um, good afternoon, everyone. Great to follow a horse race, uh, and great to be up here, most specifically with such good friends, uh, across this panel, and, uh, severe thanks to, uh, Mark Hammond for hosting this event, bringing us all together, not just on this panel, but the, the heads of navies and the leadership within the, uh, Indo-Pacific that is here. Uh, it's mar- remarkable, Mark, uh, and, uh, wonderful, wonderful to be here. Uh, you know, we ha- I, I follow, uh, Sean Wat, who has, uh, statistics that are commensurate, that you all know. You know, the amount of trade that goes through the Indo-Pacific, uh, the vitality of the region, specifically that our colleagues talked about, and the requirements for us to live prosperously within it, uh, generate these challenges, as we mentioned, uh, which are, uh, freedom of navigation and the ability for free trade, uh, IUU fishing, counter, uh, you know, narco-trafficking, human trafficking, uh, the pieces of the cabling networks that, uh, that we are so vitally, um, reliant upon. And all of these challenges reside specifically here in such a vital region. And so as we talk about these particular challenges from a maritime perspective, uh, I really liked the comments, uh, early, uh, by Zulhelmy, which talked about cooperation. You know, it's based on that and 80 years of relative peace here, which is founded in sovereignty and it's founded in international law, has given us this level of, um, wellbeing over these last eight years, and it's based on cooperation. And the like-minded partners that see that, uh, put us all in a very good place. And unfortunately, what we have is this ability for the threats we mentioned, whether it be IUU fishing or narco-trafficking or something that go against international law, or specific geopolitical capability that is working to change, uh, international law for their behaviour or for, to their benefit. Uh, and those then generate a level of challenge, which gets to competition. Uh, and we need to stay in the competition phase to avoid crisis and ultimately conflict. And I think we have opportunity to be within this scope of, uh, of challenge here and keep us on the left side. Cooperation and, uh, conceivably competition, and avoid these other sides. And the way we do that, specifically, is to operate together. I think the theme we've seen across these four speakers thus far is it's a function of our allies and partners, uh, and like-minded, uh, countries that operate together within this Indo-Pacific region. And, uh, we're blessed to have them here at this conference. Uh, I think it's important to just remember that, uh, our commercial and international or intellectual vitality, and even our own livelihoods depend on an Indo-Pacific, uh, that's based on law, freedom of the seas, skies, space, and cyberspace. And as threats evolve to that, and we see it specifically, uh, currently in the South China Sea, uh, s- China's very, been extremely provocative and unsafe and destabilising in this specific region. And as an, as a like-minded capability to push back on that in things that are based in international law and the ability to, uh, have navies and maritime capability that can specifically counter it, hopefully in competition, uh...... the ability to do so in crisis generates a level of deterrents that hopefully with, uh, with international law on the basis and the backing, uh, will have an effect towards deterrence, which is ultimately our goal. Uh, as the, as these threats evolve, uh, we must also evolve and we must continue to deepen our cooperation both operationally, technologically, and in, with... and maintain our, our values. Uh, certainly I, and I think the people here, though not to speak for them, are committed on this momentum that continues to build. And, uh, I think it's, uh, vitally important. Uh, our task remains, uh, to maintain a free and open Indo-Pacific. Uh, none of these challenges have any borders. That's why, uh, in the maritime domain, it takes a group of all like-minded navies to operate together as a counter. I certainly look forward to questions and comments, and I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. Thanks.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: …you’re absolutely correct in saying there's a lot of rhyme in what's being said up here. And picking up on some of the words that have been, um, uh, consistently used, cooperation, partnership, trust, rules-based order and governance, and the changing threat. Uh, and, uh, I think you've just called on us all to, to take responsibility for getting after that in a way, um, to ensure that maritime secu-security in a very personal way. So, uh, we- I think we'll take that challenge on and go forward. But, uh, um, the consistency across, um, the panel today has been reassuring that we are well and truly on that path. Uh, CN, sir, I'm, I'm gonna start straight with a question for you, uh, ha- having had the opportunity to speak a number of times so far.
Vice Admiral Mark Hammond: Thank you.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Um, sir, you've been very clear on the importance of access to the sea for Australia's security and prosperity. Uh, the importance of that access is something we share with all the nations represented here. You've also spoken about the need to assure that access, if it cannot be assumed, um, what steps can navies across our region take to optimise collective deterrents and assurance in the oceans and the harbours of the Indo-Pacific? And why is navy-to-navy cooperation important?
Vice Admiral Mark Hammond: Thanks, Chris. Uh, I, I... Thank you for taking that approach because, yes, I think you've all heard enough from me about maritime security. What, what I would say in, in response to the question is the, the maritime security professionals of the world need to speak frankly about the fact that there would be no maritime security challenges if people just played by the rules, acted in accordance with international law. In the 1970s, there was a determined effort to resolve maritime claims and disputes, and that led to the establishment of the United Nations Conventional Law of the Sea and the associated framework, including a tribunal that would adjudicate on these things. Um, and that has worked really, really well for the world. Uh, it has led to a situation where we didn't have to spend a whole bunch of taxpayers' money on maritime capabilities because there was good order at sea with the exception of piracy, which is another illegal act. So, the first obligation to us, uh, to, to mariners, to professional maritime security practitioners is to speak frankly, uh, about what's in the, the region's interest and what isn't. Uh, and this is the, the beauty of maritime security conferences like this, uh, where we are joined, uh, by colleagues from academia, uh, from industry, um, to, to talk about what really, really matters. Uh, so partnership at sea I think begins with partnership ashore in many respects, uh, and speaking with one voice. And I know that that's what we are effectively doing. As you said, Chris, there's a common theme here across the, uh, ac- across the comments from all of us. Um, our maritime power, as I mentioned earlier, is, is not, um... It is not as huge in, in... as a consequence of the number of platforms we have or the number of people we have in our navy. Uh, therefore, our voice only carries so much weight. Um, the, the beauty of multilateralism, to Zulhelmy's point, uh, is, is that your voice is amplified. Uh, the, the more people who are standing next to you saying the same thing, the more compelling the message is. And frankly, the, the greater the deterrent effect in opposing that. So ultimately, I think it, it's really, really important that if we wish to see a reduction in maritime security challenges, then we must all champion the international rules-based system which has dealt so well with these challenges in the past. And, and to recognise things such as historic visitation claims apply to so many people, particularly in, in your region, Sean. You know, the, the, the islands and atolls and reefs and, and fisheries are being visited by so many nations for so many years. Um, but UNCLOS dealt with that deliberately. Uh, I, I read, read an article recently online that s- that says that the establishment of UNCLOS and its ratification by so many states effectively extinguished that claim, and that was dealt with by the tribunal. So I think that's the first responsibility. Um, we partner really well at sea, uh, but we do have an obligation to, to champion peace and security in our time, particularly when it comes to maritime security. Uh, and it's probably one of the, the, the, the greatest privileges of this role is to do it with, um... so consistently across the region with so many good friends. I thank you all for, for supporting us here today, um, but, uh, every day.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Thank you, sir. And, um, I'm just gonna pick up on the, the UNCLOS point. And I think it's, um, it is probably one of the, the most effective pieces of, uh, international law that's ever been achieved, and, and quite extraordinary. And the fact that it wasn't forced down on people, and that a whole range of nations had an opportunity. And particularly, Fiji and Indonesia who were absolutely essential in, in getting the inclusion of the archipelagic components of that, which were generated through it. So this is a law that is being developed from the bottom up, uh, across the world. And so, when we look at pulling that apart, it was designed by people for the people to ensure that both large nations and small could benefit from it, and so important to, to continue. Uh, on that vein, I'm, I'm going to go to, um, you, uh, Commodore Natuva. Um, and, and given your UN experience in the golen, the Golen Heights, I was tempted to ask for an observations of the Middle East. But, uh, I was told that that was definitely outside the Indo-Pacific realm, so I'm winding back. Um, but, but I am picking up from, uh, that global perspective, uh, could you describe how, how quickly international tensions or disruptions reach Fiji? And, and how you prepare and develop, uh, national resistance for, for those circumstances.
Commodore Timoci Natuva: I think a question on Golen Heights would have been easier for me to answer. Uh, but, uh, anyways, uh, uh, thank you very much. Yeah, I think, uh, due to, due to globalization, due to the interconnected, uh, interconnectedness, due to the, uh, fact that, uh, you know, the oceans trade in particular is very important to Fiji. Uh, like Australia, about 96% of our trade. Any incident that happen anywhere in the world, uh, impact us. Uh, the war in Ukraine, you know, the ... due to the cost of rent, flour, it impacted us. So any tension that occur anywhere around the world, small island in the Pacific, impact us. It does not only impact Fiji. It impacts also countries like the, uh, relies on Fiji, the little countries in the Pacific, some other countries in the Pacific that, you know, get their cargo in Fiji and we ship to them. Countries like, uh, Kiribati, countries like Tuvalu, Nauru. So it's very important that we maintain, you know, like the sea lines of communications open. It's... Like for us even, we are a small navy. Uh, we, we don't have the capability to have a meaningful, like a protection, protecting sea lines of communication. But we rely on existing rules. We feel like the rules is for the, for the little guys that can do much with a ha- with a hard power. So, anything that happens, uh, around the world, uh, will impact us. And we rely on those existing rules, uh, for people, for countries, for states to follow. And if those rules are not followed, I think that is why we were very influential or very, you know, with the formation of, uh, UNCLOS. Uh, Fiji was one of the first few countries to, to sign on. And it was also why our c- current navy exists. We were, the navy, we, we... This is our 50th, uh, anniversary. We were formed in 1975 because of UNCLOS was coming in later, in, uh, in 1982. So one of the reason Fiji Navy exists was because of UNCLOS. So, uh, rules are very important to us because now, even more, the world is just so connected that we are not isolated from any, um, crisis or anything that happen anywhere around the world. Thank you.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Thank you. And, uh, yeah, it's, uh, interesting to look at the fact that, uh, we used to see oceans as moats protecting us. And as you highlighted there, uh, uh, a conflict in, in Eastern Europe is having direct impacts. And, and Fiji is, going back to Golden Heights, is having an impact around the world through your navy and your operations there. So, uh, that, uh, conduit, um, to the rest of the world is so important. So thank you very much. Uh, Admiral Wat, uh, on one of your previous posts looked at long-term plans for Singaporean armed force capability development. Uh, could you reflect on what your outlook was then, and how closely or otherwise your experience as chief has been? Uh, do you think that technological advances will enable better responses to enduring maritime security challenges?
Rear Admiral Sean Wat: Yeah. Um, thanks, Chris. So I must first say that that was a long time ago, when I was doing long-term planning. Uh, but I think one thing is quite clear as, uh, I think all the heads of navies or principal commands look at how to force structure for the future, uh, it's quite clear that the future is changing very rapidly. Uh, and the technology that's now being made available, uh, is probably changing at an even, uh, faster pace. So I do think that, um, the challenge is really to, uh, to sense make, uh, what future to prepare for, uh, and what technology to use to get there. Uh, there are many different options. There are a lot of different technologies, uh, coming online. Uh, and I do think that, uh, being able to figure out the strategy, uh, and decide on technology that you need is, uh, is quite critical to all of this. I think one of the things that, uh, you can take away from the Ukraine, uh, conflict, uh, is that the prevalence of, uh, low cost, uh, unmanned systems-... uh, in many domains. And I do think that navies have to think very seriously about how to think about both the defense against some of these systems, and also employ these to do basic, uh, maritime operations. Uh, whether it be American surveillance over wide areas, coastal patrols, uh, harbour defence. All of these, uh, I think there's a fund- there's opportunity to rethink the way that we do business across all of this as well. And I do think, I do find that the challenge is you're looking out there at what's available, and how do you decide on what is the best way forward? Uh, there are many, many options, and I do think that, uh, levelling ourselves up, levelling our teams up to be able to understand the tech, uh, understand some of the, the latest AI developments, uh, and what undergirds all of that, uh, is quite essential to making wise decisions.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: Yeah. It's, um, interesting when you think about it. I think we used to think about a, a new task and who is going to be given that task. I think the question now is, how are we going to do that task? And technology plays a, a large role in that. And I think, uh, y- you mentioned there the, the technology literacy, um, which, which doesn't reside with me, uh, but with the younger members and the senior leaders we now need to actually provide more, more trust and, and, and, um, um, more leverage for our younger people to go after some of the problems, and just trust and believe in them going forward. So, yeah. Um, Admiral Zulhelmy, um, this I could've asked of either yourself or, um, Admiral Wat, but, uh, I'll come to you. Um, can, can you talk about the significance of the mutual submarine rescue support and cooperation, uh, you both signed in August? Uh, does this signal potential for further cooperation, and if so, on, on what matters? Right.
Uh-
Bringing people together. Thanks. Of course.
Singapore has been our closest ally. And, uh, you know, part of Malaysia before, before we actually signed.
That didn't go as well as I thought.
So, it's, it's, uh, symbiotic. Uh, we rely on each other on a lot of things. Uh, particularly on this, uh, Mercury submarine Corporation, which was, uh, finally signed, uh, this year. Uh, it took some time because of the sensitivity of the systems. Uh, but in the end, we managed to convince our governments, our leaders that this is absolutely necessary. So that was what happened. And, um, apart from that, there are a lot of other things, other areas, especially in sharing of information, that's been going on between Malaysia and Singapore.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, in terms of unmanned systems, uh, we are lucky to have Singapore, uh, who's always a step ahead of us so that we can just look at them and adopt whatever they are doing as long as it's, it's good. I mean, to be able to operate an unmanned system in one of the busiest straits in the world, the Singapore Straits, that takes a lot of effort, a lot of data collection, and a lot of convincing to the Singapore government, uh, to agree on actually operating an unmanned system in the busy strait like that. You know, a lot of things can go wrong. But kudos to Singapore for doing that. That sets a template for us as well, uh, when we go in front of our government to convince them of going for unmanned system in the future. Um, but this is what cooperation is all about. It's, it's about understanding each other's requirement and shared prosperity, and, uh, a shared common goal. It's not only Malaysian and Singapore, but in the Indo-Pacific region. I mean, Singapore Straits, Malacca Strait for example, that's, that's, uh, an area where, uh, critical vulnerability for all of us, actually. So, we need to work together and, and whatever helps, that's going to be the best way forward.
May I just add to that as well? Yeah. Uh, let me just echo Tan Sri's, uh, uh, sort of comments. Uh, I think fundamentally, uh, Singapore and Malaysia believe that we are stronger together. Uh, that's one thing we believe bilaterally, uh, but also something we share across ASEA. And again, we extend that to multilateral partners around the region. Uh, and we fundamentally believe that, uh, by working together, we can tap on each other's strengths, uh, and we can be, uh, stronger, and we can achieve peace and prosperity for our peoples. And that's what we all want. And specific to the submarine rescue arrangement, uh, this is an arrangement by which we make available each other's submarine rescue capabilities. And fundamentally, we wanna take care of our people. We wanna take care of us mariners. We want them to have the assurance knowing that there are multiple systems out there available for them should an unfortunate incident happen.
Uh, it's, uh, it, it is powerful and it sort of reinforces that, um, our cooperation in that is not a single agreement or a single act. It's, it's, it's, um, it's the dozens and thousands of individual, uh, connections, whether they be individual or more formal or less formal, that sort of thatch that together. And the closer we are thatched together, the harder it is to pull apart. Uh, and then we can sort of defend against some of the, um, tactics that are being used to deliberately try and drive wedges between us all. And, uh, I think that, uh, uh, submarine r- search and rescue, uh, has been a focal point, uh, recently, and is such a, a, a good area to focus together, to work together, uh, and cooperate throughout the region, uh, for the safety of all of ourselves. Okay. Uh, Admiral Koehler, uh, you've previously spoken of changes to the maritime security, uh, environment driven by technology, and you, you mentioned them again earlier in your comments. Uh, two questions. I'm sorry. Do you think the pace of change will decrease-... increase or stay about the same, and why? And what impact does this have on the USN ability to remain well-connected with allies and partners who don't have the same capacity-
They started early, didn't they? Yeah.
Uh, those are, those are good ones.
They started early.
Admiral Stephen Koehler: Uh, what I would tell you specifically, Chris, is I, I don't think the pace of change will, uh, will slow.
I don't think it's gonna be linear.
Admiral Stephen Koehler: Um, I think in general, change at large, um, can h- h- has in, in history, um, seemed that it is linear. Uh, I don't think it's, if you, if you compress the scale, it would be as linear as you think. Um, time is what's generating the level of linearity. And, uh, and what we see now is the ability to innovate very quickly, um, due to speed of compute, uh, to speed of, of information, well, you hope absorption, but speed of information and all of these things. And so because of that, I don't envision, uh, that we're gonna get this rate of technological change that'll just level off. Um, so with that comes an enormous challenge for all of us. Uh, specifically, um, if you look at the, the purchasing or the buying of technology, I think importantly everyone involved in the level of technology needs to have the ability for that system that's bought to be upgradable and adaptable. And that is what's gonna generate, uh, all different levels of, um, uh, military buying power, uh, if that's how you wanna, um, characterise it, to have the ability to stay with the rate of change. Uh, you know, as an example of, uh, you know, s- a very basic example, the software upgrade, for instance, right? Uh, those particular things are looked at as a, "Hey, that's just a, that's a way we have to do that." And then traditionally, it's been more clunky. Uh, I think now it's gonna be very rapid, specifically whether it's in the cloud and in the middle of whether a conflict or competition that those things are upgraded. And that capability, um, I think needs to be inherent in, in, in things that we buy and the capabilities that we do. I characterise all of that with, um, ultimately, whether it be conflict, uh, or we're working together, allies and partners, is a human endeavour. And so amidst all this technology, amidst the change that will radically, uh, I think, uh, continue, um, all of the things come down to the human experience and the integration with each other. And so as we look at this technical challenge, we have to have opportunity at all different levels of navies, at all different levels of need, uh, and then realise that none of that is solved without, uh, the human experience together. Um, and gets back to this, you know, piece that Mark sort of mentioned about following the rules or that I mentioned a little bit of sovereignty and international law based on values ultimately is where it all goes. And that technology is an enabler, and we have to stay on a, on a, a rapid path to, to update those things as mentioned. Uh, but it's a human experience piece.
Uh, I think, uh, the human factor, as you mentioned, sir, is so important. Technology is clearly a game changer, but every time we've seen a fundamental paradigm shift, it has not necessarily been due to a technology. It's been the re-imagining of a situation and then utilizing that technology. So, so for all you junior officers out there, you've got a future. You've just gotta work out how to play the technology game, but it definitely is a, is a challenge ki- trying to move forward. And, uh, as you mentioned, uh, we're wi- looking forward to how we use that technology. Um, we might go answer any, any questions that are coming from the audience.
Yes, please. Yeah, so we've, um, there's one here that probably links to the recent UK, uh, United Kingdom Carrier Strike Group deployment. Is there an opportunity to further engage with the European Union or the broader, uh, European, uh, region and those navies to enhance maritime security in the Indo-Pacific? And if so, what are the key priorities there for alignment?
Okay, did anyone wanna specifically tackle that? What are your...Sir?
Uh, so the UK Carrier Strike Group deployment was the most recent one. Before that, we had the Italian Carrier Strike Group, and the French Carrier Strike Group. Uh, I don't think Antonio is in the room, but I, uh, understand that, uh, the Armada is contemplating a sim- similar deployment, uh, in a year or two. Uh, I understand the, uh, Italian Navy may be coming back again. So I think the ... A- and keeping in mind that the deployment, that the decision to deploy a carrier strike group is a strategic decision. Uh, it represents the, the, the, uh, an expression of what that, uh, nation state believes is an important contribution to, to global security. So, uh, I, I think what we are going to continue to see is while there is anxiety about sustaining peace and security in the Indo-Pacific region, I think you'll continue to see contributions like the UK Carrier Strike Group, uh, deployment and the French and the Italian strike group deployments. I think we're gonna see that, uh, normalize. Um, there's also a, a bit of a pull factor here. The, uh, Australian, um, uh, Talisman Sabre, or I should say the joint Australia-US, um, exercise Talisman Australia has become a bit of a beacon, uh, that attracts a, a lot of international partners. Uh, it is, um, uh, is a melting pot of international collaboration now and cooperation, uh, and a great opportunity for us to, to test some of those new and emerging technologies. So, simple answer, I think you're gonna see a lot more of it. Uh, and certainly, uh, it's in Australia's national interest to participate in those activities and to enhance our interoperability and exchangeability with, um, NATO partners, uh, and European partners every time they come here, uh, to the Indo-Pacific.
Rear Admiral Chris Smith: And, and a follow-up, uh, Admiral Koehler, um, you know, we, we've flagged these corporations that we have under NATO, under QUAD, under ASEAN, under a range of other things. Do, do you see a time in the future where we may have a European carrier strike group come up and flag a particular activity under a European union or other, um, structure or, or, or, or would that, um, just complicate?
Admiral Stephen Koehler: Yeah. Chris, I, I think that's a, um, a pretty, uh, interesting, uh, or large move, I, I guess I would say. What, what I would say is, is that, you know, certainly, um, sovereign decisions to bring combat power to a place where, uh, people need or feel they need influence, um, and I think as mentioned, uh, here with some of the st- statistics we put out in global trade, there is certainly a lot of reason, uh, to be involved in the Indo-Pacific. Um, those things I think we should look at it in a sense of, uh, anybody is... The way that I look at it as a, a, in, in my level of responsibility is anybody who wants to come to help, um, you know, I, I appreciate the help and that's, that's people along this table, uh, that's me to them, um, and anyone else that would wanna come. Um, so as far as, uh, doing something under some different flag and all that stuff, I think there's a level of coordination that we've seen happens in the Indo-Pacific and, um, I think that model, uh, of like-minded, um, reigns true here well as it is. I mean, examples of that would be to your point, Talisman Sabre, uh, is an exercise capability, RIMPAC as an exercise capability-
Mm-hmm.
Admiral Stephen Koehler:... where multiple nations come and have opportunity to, um, to be involved in that.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so the emerging deep seabed mining industry is posing challenges to the Pacific, to Pacific regionalism and UNCLOS stability. How do we see that we can better cooperate and prepare together?
Uh, well, why don't you go? If, if, if not, I'll open it to the panel.
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a country in very shallow waters.
That's a very good point.
It just makes them easier to get at. Sure. So deep seabed mining.
Deep seabed mining.
Deep seabed mining. Deep seabed mining.
Commodore Timoci Natuva: Um, I think that the deep sea mining is something that, uh, we are aware of. Uh, there's, there's intention of, uh, nations, uh, doing exploration, uh, within our waters. Uh, we have to f- for, for like, for Fiji, uh, like most islands in the Pacific, um, sustaining our oceans, ocean sustainability, ocean health is, is, is a priority. Uh, and in this, we need to balance that with what potentially deep sea mining can do for us. But I think for Fiji, there's, there's a certain area within Fiji that has been identified where there are minerals, um, I'm not... Cobalt or, I've forgotten the, the right name, uh, that exists, uh. I think from Fiji's standpoint, uh, we are not for deep sea mining. Uh, and that has been highlighted in the various, uh, international forums. Uh, we just recently, uh, signed on to the BBNJ, uh, which highlights o- our, our need to protect, uh, oceans, uh, and oceans' health. So it, it, it is something that has been flagged. It's something that we are, are aware of. Uh, but for us, you know, we can only manage so much. There's a lot going on in our region. For example, uh, as a defence force, as a navy, uh, you, you look after other things as well. Uh, you look after law enforcement, you look after such and such. You... So many other things and you have to prioritise all the things that you look at. Uh, and when we talk about, uh, deep sea mining, we have to... That's why I highlighted, uh, the need for, for governance, uh, proper governance, coherent strategy by, you know, by all on, on how we move forward when it comes to maritime security. It has to be a whole-of-nation approach, a whole-of-government approach when something comes up like this. So I think, uh, for Fiji, we always look at ocean sustainability, sustaining our ocean as a clear priority. Anything that will undermine, you know, the, the, the health of oceans is something that we'll, we'll go against.
Yeah, yeah, I think the, um, we will see more of this as the technology comes along to enable these sort of actions. And I think that the voices of, of countries like Fiji will be very important as we go forward.
Seeing that we're talking, I recommend we conclude there because you've all got subsequent commitments and Therefore-
So, please, uh, it's been, um, a pleasure to be on stage with, uh, with a group of exceptional leaders, um, many of whom I've known for, for, for a long time. And, uh, thank you very much, uh, to join us here today. I think the thing we've taken or I've taken away from this is that, uh, we, we are stronger together, uh, but also picking up, uh, um, uh, your challenge, uh, Kayla, to take responsibility individually to get after this and, uh, can't leave it for others. And, um, and, and what I've said consistently across the panel that, uh, you know, the cooperation is where we're gonna take this forward. So thank you all very much and I, and I ask you all to please, uh, thank the panel this afternoon.
Commodore Antony Pisani: Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the, uh, final panel, uh, for today. Uh, we'll reconvene at nine o'clock tomorrow morning, so 09:00, with an address by the Chief of the Australian Defence Force, Admiral David Johnston. Thank you, and have a lovely afternoon and evening.